Summary:
This conversation took place at Pink’s new location on Lord Street, Stockport, Greater Manchester.
Katy Morrison is the director and curator of Pink, while simultaneously undertaking a part-time practice-based curatorship PhD at MMU (Manchester Metropolitan University). Her research is about how the method is a form (is a method…), and extending the notion of the hyphenate ‘artist-curator’ into describing ‘artistic-curatorial practice.’ Pink is a self-sustaining practice-as-research based organisation that works closely with its artists to develop DYCP or Project Grant ACE funding to realise their most ambitious projects to date. Previous beneficiaries of this expertise include Kara Chin, Harley Kuyck-Cohen, Harriet Bowman, Liam Fallon and Jack Sheen.
This conversation ranges over her PhD, possibilities for my work after graduation from Camberwell, funding structures, the Mark Tanner Sculpture Award, practice-as-research; and taking the time to do it right, or not doing it at all.
It has been transcribed by software.
Pink’s 2nd floor premises in Hilton House, Lord Street, Stockport. Expansion is planned into the ground and first floors. A studio-funding model pays the bills, while ambitions are realised in project spaces using ACE funding.
Transcript
Katy Morrison
My PhD is looking at looking my PhD, looking at looking at the Arts residency and the method. That's kind of come from me doing residencies using the residency framework with painting. And I'm looking at the residences of both a model and as a method as a form of research to basically have developed recursive understanding of the curatorial like or curatorial inquiry. So how can how can a model and a method in fact tell you more and be a form of research for the thing itself?
Owen
And it's like.
Katy Morrison
How can model be research?
Owen
All of that kind of all of that. Kind of like. You've all of that somehow ends up placed in the work in some way that you can't see, but you find it.
Katy Morrison
Yes.
Owen
You find that it is there actually.
Katy Morrison
It's like then it becomes things of like you've got like notions of infrastructure, you've got kind of modelling or even better modelling. If it goes like the systems thinking or people like computer generation and systems thinking. Are actually quite useful. Construction of something that thinks through his own construction but then produces an output that is a perfect example of its own construction that's thought through. So this is this is this interesting kind of like. And then thinking about the curatorial not curating with the curatorial within that kind of framework where the curatorial, if you remove the kind of practical pragmatics and like, you know, hanging stuff and building a wall or whatever it is, this constant like, kind of. Snake eating its own tail. Input output vector situation. So something interesting. Try talking explaining like like when I've got with such an ADHD brain that fires on all synapses sit in with my tutors where they I just have to let understand. I just trust the process. I will come to you with a thesis and it will make sense. Just trust the process.
Yeah. It was called. I called IT systems nonsense working titles. Obviously she is as she yet but. Time and. But to be honest, giving myself. Acting like you're not doing. It full time. I'm like one. How the **** am I think for it? Because I work for two. I think so - sorry, love. Every time I move there’s this game of table chicken.
Owen
Feel like counterbalance thing? Yeah, I like this. That's like Wood and Harrison have a meeting.
Katy Morrison
It's like it's. It's. Yeah. Like, I I don't need a quick fire. Three years. I need the slow. Especially because I'm doing case studies on some of the different projects that I'm starting next year is I need that slowness because otherwise. I have to try and rush and build pink Pink's programme. I would basically would have to be writing and completing my thesis next year. Yeah, and funding structures don't work like that. Like get getting funding, planning programme, running an institution or an arts organisation isn't on the same time frame as doing a PhD.
Owen
You kind of are doing. A practice-as-research PhD.
Katy Morrison
Yeah – practice-based.
Owen
OK. Well, basically, is, isn't it? Because it's like, well, you'll find out kind of as you do it basically. Whereas. Yeah, yeah. If it was intensive, you'd just, like, take a big crunchy.
Katy Morrison
Yeah. I need to slow.
Owen
Hard. Push at what you think it might be, and it might well not be that. And if it just be handling it in this can, you can't do that.
Katy Morrison
Exactly. And you also? In this position, where you almost have to fabricate the situation in order to make it happen where it's just like, you know, almost like cobble to get, it, might not even be the right person.
Owen
Yeah, yeah. It's giving me a headache thinking about doing. It. Quickly, so yeah. Don't do. Yeah, I agree with you.
Katy Morrison
No, absolutely not. Six years to find you. May like this is. What it is? For you know, what's my title is the systems of rehearsal towards the altered residency as originally asked. It was performed state security inquiry, but now I. Think it's just. To rehearsal, towards the office, residency as a recursive space.
Speaker
For an inquiry.
Owen
Recursive is better, the performance is.
Katy Morrison
I think recursive is better performance from being there within the kind. Of. Cause at some point and performativity based on the idea of of, because the whole premise is is that I how I work with artists at this point in Pink's life is it's one-on-one. I work for people with a long like how I work with Kevin, like it's at different points over a long period of time. And it's what I referred to as like. Critically intimate and it's this situation where it's almost like a Co production and there's a Co agency and a production of these, whatever. Whatever we do together.
And that the performativity of like roles and the social performativity of like the artist, there's a whole. Got this little thing with PhD. You got a breakdown? You got a paper rock. Go see what's. Underneath it and. Then smash it over the head with. The rock and I'm playing with the toy. Obviously we've got artists, hyphen curator and we've always, you know, that's the kind of. 30-40 year kind of term.
Owen
Yeah.
Katy Morrison
For what I'm toying with and that no one else has really used is artistic hyphen territorial knowledge? Where actually the what I produce is painful. What I do is painful. It isn't necessarily the curatorial. It isn't artistic research, it's this artistic hyphen, curatorial research. And it's just like. Tiny little seed of a crossover that I've noticed where I can't quite find a vocabulary for myself. In one field I don't quite fit in the other, so all of a sudden I'm. Like. I'm sure like A-IN between these Orioles or artistically. And I'm just. Going to see what happens there, and actually maybe the kind of the residency test method that I'm developing is a nice, interesting little fertile ground for this reason, like a redefinition. Knowledge paradigm. Like what happened? Oh, here's our research. And then it kind of. It just left even in the discussion that David that they called specific research. And then when you're in the artistic research, well, it kind of disconnects and disengage with the number of conversations.
Owen
It's kind of. Artistic research. Sort of. If you're not, if you're. Not careful, it falls down around it.
Katy Morrison
Yeah. It contradicts itself in so many ways as well.
Owen
Yeah. Yeah. You have to make. I mean, if you're, if you're out and about and you're doing. Residencies and work in the real world and you can just. About Randle on it, but if? You do artistically said, fine. I think you.
Katy Morrison
Poor business. I think. Lizzie, why? I'm very. Glad that I found. Like a model for doing and showing instead of just thinking so like at least with thing I can think I. Can do that and make.
Owen
Yeah.
Katy Morrison
Because they're just thinking, which is again, why practise based PhD works for me? Because if I was just for three or even longer years, I'm just thinking, God, it ******* help. Just it ties you up in. Not that you didn't think you could get in.
Owen
Yeah.
Katy Morrison
And when we? First had like like a little stupid induction week at the UNI. Everyone there who had never been to MU before and I was just sat there 3° deep in MU just like. Hi everybody I know everything but during that induction week like this will change your life. It will change the way you think about yourself. You'll go on a psychological journey you'll like. You'll get really bad in Hospice and all of these different things up into therapy. I've got trauma like this.
Owen
Yeah. Yeah. MHM.
Katy Morrison
Book me. I have never doubted myself in a way. I was doing a PhD.
Owen
Yeah.
Katy Morrison
The levels I sit there and go. I'll be like in my office and my boyfriend will be like, OK, I'm like, can't do it, can't be. I'm gonna quit. I'm gonna. I'm just gonna just sack it off. I'm gonna tell student finance that I quit. I just can't do it. And then next thing you know, you found a. PDF. And you're like, Oh my God, that PDF makes everything makes sense. And like, I've got at least another year. I can do another year. And it's that constant thing. It's just like. Discovery and finding and searching. And I love every minute of it.
Owen
Who are you doing it with?
Katy Morrison
Doing it so golf and bell.
Katy Morrison
You don't need to meet goals and bell. That's my opinion. She's my principal supervisor and I've already made a complaint. About her two years in.
Owen
OK. Is it MMU
Katy Morrison
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Owen
Doing with it right?
Katy Morrison
Most of the well, they offered. I'm I'm paying for it through like postgrad. Loans. Real debt also never gonna earn enough. To pay it back. So.
Owen
Do they do?
Katy Morrison
What's all that?
Owen
They loan you another one. Or can you only have one between a masters and a graduate?
Katy Morrison
Post grad and they I think it's a recent development. Last three years I've opened up to. PHD's as. Well, so you just do it on a loan.
Owen
That explains that explains the amount of like peer funded PHD's dipping though, isn't it because people can people are now able to borrow to pay, right? That explains that then.
Katy Morrison
So. It's. It's looking easy, but it does. Obviously, it doesn't necessarily mean you'll be accepted, obviously. Still process process of application, but it just means that you definitely aren't fighting if like for me. Because I was. Like, oh, what if you don't get funding for? It and I might want to. ******* pay for it myself because.
Owen
Are you?
Katy Morrison
It is what it is.
Owen
But also this is it sounds weird. This is kind of a good thing for I would imagine for UK universities because if they are, if they're currently struggling with like actually how to deliver their BA and MA courses. If they are at least and we shouldn't need people to do 7 years of training to start doing art, it's ******* insane. It's ******* mental. But and and like more than 10 years to start teaching it when that's just not true and not like some of my more energetic tutors did not go that route.
Katy Morrison
That is.
Owen
Don't have a headache? Yeah. But at least there is a silver lining that, like UK universities pivoting towards research, I think. Is also a good.
Katy Morrison
In the thing MMU for.
Owen
Yeah.
Katy Morrison
I never thought that it would be somewhere that would relish in kind of like practise based research, but it actually does and trying. To do better and.
Owen
It makes a lot of sense for me, I think.
Katy Morrison
It does, and I think they're finally starting to get some decent faculty staff like, there's not. It's still it's nowhere near. It's not as up to date in the contemporary conversations around either. For a research or artistic research or anything else in between. But they're finally starting to recognise that practise. Based research is very valid and the post arts Humanities Research Centre the pack used to, called Myriad. Now it's called arc. They have a real focus on helping people doing practise based pH. D There's basically a number of people, myself included, have made several complaints because even though in practise based there's this big focus and we basically hold that we're not doing enough writing.
Speaker
Yeah.
Katy Morrison
When actually my process and the number of people basically all grouped together because my chief will be like like every three weeks I wanna see like 6000 words off you and I'm like. Right. In either world, yes, you would, because she just wants me to get the thesis. Really. That's her goal. Fine. I understand that. But the me putting on a programme or me applying for funding or me? That's that's part of the practise and that's equivalent to those words and.
Owen
Yeah, I agree. Yeah.
Speaker
It's.
Katy Morrison
Will be like where's where the words. Because I can. I can produce 6000 words for you and be like she's wasting everyone's time. Or you can let me ferment.
Owen
Yeah, that that is. That is performative. If I can, I can give you.
Katy Morrison
Yeah, exactly.
Owen
6000 empty words.
Katy Morrison
I can give you 6000 I can. Write 6000. Chat GPTS word chat PC give me a give me a structure for a short essay. On curatorial research. Yeah, done. I'll write it.
Owen
I think it's interesting. We've seen them about I've artistic, curatorial, hyphenated. The other thing that.
Katy Morrison
Probably not actually thought about it.
Speaker
Hmm.
Katy Morrison
Maybe there could be a reason behind that, maybe it's not probably interesting.
Speaker
But.
Katy Morrison
Building on that is within that I'm trying to basically use that as a a springboard to go. Do I need to build a new new language around how I articulate my practise?
Owen
I think it so one of the things I've been doing as well is like running these informal artist talks like live research artist talks. The last one you may have got finally got wind of it and were really supportive and. Gave me some. Budget. So the South London Gallery came in Gareth Protrans from flat Town House came, so it was good.
Katy Morrison
What's up? Wow.
Owen
But that's interesting because like, well, I. I wouldn't go around putting on a curator hat. But I might be able to wear an artist. I I do. The first thing that I like. I have an artist, curator side to to the way I do things. On what I do and trying to.
Katy Morrison
That's right. So so that's useful to remain that that area being named is useful because then you feel like, yes.
Owen
Yeah. Because I think it.
Katy Morrison
Then it just allows you even. Even if it doesn't do anything necessarily academically, or maybe it will, you know, all these little things pop up eventually and change that field. But for me at least, it's productive because it allows me to articulate what I'm trying to do.
Owen
Yeah.
Katy Morrison
In a way that feels. More expressive for my practise that I might not have had to that I might not have found in other things, because especially it can be it's it's just because of the thinking through like who I am professionally. Like I've never gone and worked in the gallery as a curator. It's not really what I do. In my head.
Owen
You'd have institutional things to deal with them.
Katy Morrison
And I'm not necessarily, I'm not an artist. In the typical sense, I didn't. I went to art school, but I didn't do a fine art, so I'm not an artist and I'm just this weird, strange hybrid in between. And that's OK. And within building, think something like Pink can have in this physical space. I've always still continued to see it as this kind of container for a critic. It's it's a research conversation and the artistic item, curatorial research, or artistic item curatorial knowledge produced by it. There's something going on there. So my PhD is me trying to figure out.
Owen
I think it's interesting.
Katy Morrison
What the **** is going on?
Owen
But I think it's. Interesting and good though that here. You don't have to have a heavy weight. People coming in didn't have to have the weight of academic research behind that. So I think it's great.
Katy Morrison
No, no. Yeah, encouraged not to.
Owen
So like the first. Yeah. So the first thing you, so the first thing you said was like let's see it big. Great, yeah, I'd like.
Katy Morrison
Yeah.
Owen
To see it big. Let's work. Let's work out work that out later.
Katy Morrison
I think that would. Be really, I think I don't know it. Just it's even just holding touch of. That I could just see it in there. Like just see it in.
So I don't think it. It's. That room is so even though it's obviously nuanced by a couple of like bits, just when it's all we, the floor is done in, the walls are done. The then the blackout burns down and the light is bouncing off every white edge. It just is just the most, especially if you, especially if you go and use like the copper again my God the the the accidental. Imagery that's caused by shapes and shadows in that space.
Owen
Yeah, I wonder. And I wonder what you could take. I wonder what you could do with the.
Katy Morrison
Very nice.
Owen
Walls of it. You could like not onto the wall, but like.
Katy Morrison
Let me do it one as long. As it gets to that cab like. This is and this is another thing about like the method of working one-on-one with artists is the kind of premise for pink and what I'm kind of telling all these funders is basically it's the time, space, and resources for an artist to make them as ambitious work today.
Speaker
MHM.
Katy Morrison
And that thinking back to the monumentality thing could be ambition in terms of scale, it could be ambition in terms of, you know, doing what would a a solo show look like? At a certain point in your career or time, or like so, that's the premise.
Owen
Yeah.
Speaker
But.
Owen
You're most ambitious can also be like what would have. The. Most affect you know it doesn't have to be too new.
Katy Morrison
What would you? What would it look? Like for you. To have a solo presentation of some sort. Of umm. Could be closed door one be a little you know on your own it's own certain people have it be a follow from one be whatever. Whatever that looks like, and that's the most important thing for me with what the structure that's created. Is is whatever the artist needs, and I assume they facilitate a role and we work together to get funding and. Yeah, like for example honestly forgot. This is for artists have. Been supported by this 15 languages before Kevin, so Kevin on Dean Knight and I just got Henry Moore funding for him as well to do a big. It's called chamber and. It's a huge it's kind of inspired by like the the Reefal or rival. Pavilion in the Netherlands. And somewhere also between Blade Runner and he's like basically it's like queer futurism. So it's like a pavilion inside of a space. And all this kind of show.
Owen
Cool mirage bar.
Katy Morrison
Culture. Big sculpture. Yeah. And then Piper, obviously. And then Harriet Bowman, Bristol based, but just one. And Mark Hannah spoke through or really like how it worked.
Owen
Yeah, I I saw Harriet in the flesh. I was at the. Mark Tanner Awards award.
Katy Morrison
Very nice. The award award. Well, it did. The same thing as a kind of some of you.
Owen
And Steph Huang, who's like. Gone from, like kind of like that to like Tate. Britain.
Katy Morrison
This is the thing you get on those platforms and just looking, I feel bad for Liam because he's been shortlisted, like twice no long list.
Owen
Shortlist the standpoint for Mark Tanner?
Katy Morrison
Yeah, yeah.
Owen
I mean, I don't know. He might win it, but.
Katy Morrison
I've got millions, obviously still very good friends, but his work has stagnated so much. That's my he. There's the whole because he went down and he's gone into the commercial circuit, isn't he? He wants to do.
Owen
Well.
Katy Morrison
The next day together and like just.
Owen
I just.
Katy Morrison
Don't bring me a brick wall.
Owen
Yeah, I think the that's an, it's an issue and. You can get. OK.
Katy Morrison
There's no plane is working.
Owen
No. Now if it makes him a load of money and then he wants to stop that, then that's completely. Fine, but but it is.
Katy Morrison
Yeah, I think a lot more.
Owen
It can be challenging, but it's not, doesn't it? Probably it's probably not in a bad position, but it probably needs. It might need to change up.
Katy Morrison
No. Well, he's very unhappy with the lack of experiment. In his life.
Owen.
I bet.
But it's the reason that I made that face. It's not my place to like, say, or yes, really. But if you read what the guys are standpoint are looking for in the Mark Tanner, it's not necessarily stuff that's like Mega, Mega finished it's stuff that's like really well. They say like sympathetic to material and Liam does not is not sympathetic.
Katy Morrison
No.
Owen
He uses it to create like he uses it like a painter.
Katy Morrison
Yeah, yeah.
Owen
Almost, with the exception of his phone, things which I think are the most interesting because they're like Jimmy Soft.
Katy Morrison
Yeah, you know. Like this, the squiggy fabric almost like pushing.
Owen
Yeah, because they're because they're, like jimmy'z soft, ambiguous things. I think those are the things that I'm. Most attracted to.
Katy Morrison
You know, it's not a scene of a threat.
Owen
But they sort of. I just don't think I don't. Think. Also, I know I know the director and vaguely I just doubt that he would want to see something that like. The standpoint isn't helping because like, they're like to be helping, they think. Could their artists lead?
Katy Morrison
Yeah, yeah. Did they show any the award that they show? Me the works like. Harriet's work. So beautiful.
Owen
They didn't. They was a Steph flying presentation. Because you work with the.
Katy Morrison
Yeah.
Owen
With the stamps like for you. Towards that final presentation, so we'll see how it's next year. Because they hand over the baton. Basically in that time.
Katy Morrison
Well, basically, we're in a follow-up followed Harriet Bowman for a while and then she likes, you know, all the stuff. And I think she is in conversation with quite a bit went into her studio in Bristol in Spice Island and just was looking at he makes his beautiful out of all of like. Broken car Windows group screen like glass and Stuff, which was really big glass pieces. I just paused and I was just like Harry. I need to see this and stop Paul. And she was like I need to see. I've seen this face. I'd I'd also like to do to.
Owen
Great.
Katy Morrison
Stop her up. And I was like, she makes it happen. Yeah, right.
Owen
Cool.
Katy Morrison
So yeah, kind of like what I've just done for you where I'm. Just like I. Want to see these in the space? Yeah, that's it. Let's make something. Let's pictures around.
Owen
Let's work it. Let's do it. So like you said. Let's.
Katy Morrison
I think DYCP for you, because I think it'd be very easy. It's a very there there's a clear trajectory on developing this way of working with the like, because there's a question, sorry to have to bring another research question to it. But there's a question of how do you work with this material? I mean it's copper sheet in whatever size, but how are you working with it?
Owen
No, no, it's fine.
Katy Morrison
To then bring it into. An as large solar presentation.
Owen
That's the that's a really interesting point because. The OR the way a lot of people work in in this city is they're like, ohh, we'll just ******* da da da and it's like, no, no, no, no. We're gonna like. Really, we're gonna cause. It's gonna be minimalist. So we're gonna think about how we do the cutting because that's really the only thing that we're doing. Yeah, we're only doing two things. Yeah. Cutting and painting, and we're going.
Katy Morrison
And maybe the odd then.
Owen
Right. Yeah. So we're gonna think about this process really carefully where my, my tutor, but also someone who I would accept as a teacher, you know, like Capaldi. And had a cinema screen made for her show at Matt's gallery. And. Obviously people would just say let's bang up at XYZ, but she does like she got the maybe the single largest silicon rubber sheet ever made. In the end. Because there was something about the like fleshiness of the cinema screen.
Katy Morrison
OK.
Owen
And like just touching the floor like this, that was like, really worth for like years extra effort, you know.
Katy Morrison
I'm so about that, like everything about. That you know.
Owen
Yeah, yeah. And then like, if you have to make a cut, you, like, make it with a scalpel. So the whole thing's really like.
Katy Morrison
Oh my God, I can. I can literally feel I can feel it like flap. I can feel the feel of moisture that.
Owen
It's so good. It's so good, isn't it? And it's just to make cinema screen, so it's just. But it's that kind of thing. Yeah, that it's like.
Katy Morrison
That's why, like for me and what I've been doing over the last few years with this space and stuff is it's it's slow and everyone like. So I've been open it out and like people just use. It so that it builds properly.
Owen
You have to do those things, yeah.
Katy Morrison
It builds profile, lets the community in, brings ******* money in, which is the most important thing, but all while being slow because I'm not about to let Dean do this huge project. There's no funding. We couldn't. It's gonna cost us.
We've got like 4 band of humour. We've got like 3 and a bit grand out of this. We still need more. We need more from the Arts Council because it costs money but like so the productions are like 5 figures and I would rather do it right or not do it at all. And so I'm I think I'm slow enough to research process.
Owen
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, if you have past, you went that crazy.
Katy Morrison
Is the lead. Time, I mean you need to use a.
Owen
Yeah, yeah.
Katy Morrison
Fabricate and know. That the importance of believe.
Owen
We're gonna say if you don't.
Katy Morrison
Time people in the city don't do that. People in the city, and this is where the ambitions disappeared, because one, I appreciate there's no money in the city, there's no, there's not many resources. There's not many spaces. But.
Owen
And there's and there's and there's commercial pressure moving everyone's necks all the time, yeah.
Katy Morrison
And so I appreciate that, which is again why I'm trying to work really hard to hold this space. To do ambition, whatever that means to people for yeah. Lead time. No one goes. OK. I'm gonna like me and Kevin. The project that we're finding the touring project won't be. We'll start it here at the end of next year and then it will complete in 2027. So we we think like an institution like.
Owen
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Katy Morrison
It needs some lead type.
Owen
If you don't, you end up with Liz West. Yeah.
Katy Morrison
And you just end up with, like, really tougher. Projects that are just done for the sake of doing them and being productive.
Owen
And to hear deadline that like Canary Wharf, someone said you in the Labour.
Katy Morrison
And so for me and this. Is what's kind of nice about working and having my own physical space now where I just never wanted to ask permission ever again. I ask obviously asked me from the landlord for.
Something up you. Know structure not to change I in fact.
Owen
Yeah, yeah, you're. You're more like asking for help and resources. You're not asking for.
Katy Morrison
I mean and. So I can just be like, you know what? If I want to?
Do this in two years time. Going to work towards the interior time, because then we'll have the full intent and and we've got like we'll have like, keep cool funders out or are.
Owen
Right.
Katy Morrison
I'm asking for 100 grand of the art. So you hear it right, so you don't do it at all?
Owen
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Katy Morrison
And then on it for the sustainability like I'm not. Relying on our. Time to come and keep the doors open like the the bar model and the space-time model in the studio to keep the doors open and then the funding is the level of the ambition.
Owen
Yeah. That's great cause then you can cause. Then you have a very clear line. To project grounds, don't you? So it's like.
Katy Morrison
Exactly because that's when when the arts comes to go ohh. You need to have long term sustainability and I'm like great, I don't need your money to pay the bill. I need your money. And then yeah, I can do all that like it.
Owen
Yeah, yeah, I can keep the doors open and keep. The lights on.
Katy Morrison
Doesn't make much profit, but it makes enough I pay myself. Between 500 and 1000 a month, depending on events, there's been no events and well, we've got 22 events in August, but they won't bring much money in. But I've got D that's why with the YCP, that's like 6 grand. So then I.